FCR symbology had a pass (Dave sent me an updated vehicle database but I'd lost it in a sea of desktop files, now resolved). It was good to see the symbols popup. A range selector is missing, that's now added to the frighteningly long list of immediate issues to resolve. At least they are small things that can be ticked off rather than whole new features requiring weeks of work.
An early scoreboard / laptop terminal will be added shortly, that's the final game glue component needed for a firing range game cycle. It bookends the flying part in an open-ended way and now the FCR/TSD glyphs are populated and we have all the necessary object data in our database I can go ahead and work on this.
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| Would this be classed as a wheeled vehicle or air defence unit? |
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| Sorry, graphics from my programmer art sand-box * not a production map * |
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| Calibrating ranges and checking LOS by placing entities in the game world. 8km max |
One major issue still to resolve, the physics / flight model integration.
I had chance to study a lot of future campaign and AI code and have some exciting ways to get more bang per buck using 'sand'. Or rather the way sand games optimise performance, the connected node structure of the campaign lends itself perfectly to some of the methods used in these games.
Potentially a lot of air search radar units can impact performance which will be vital to deal with when it comes to scaling up the engine for season 2.0
The GUI could use some more spot graphics, medals and rank insignia come to mind.
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| "We have cows" - Pure3Ds Cows liven up my test zone. I am pleased with Cow. |
And Finally
During the summer holidays my kids and I had a pet project to create an iPhone game in 48 hours. They hadn't seen much of me sadly, but I wanted to give them the taste of the creative joy that comes with making digital content. We have a working game with a lot of place holder graphics and some amusing encounters. It was a ton of fun to just create something from nothing in such a short amount of time, it's something you don't get on projects that last 2 to 5 years. We licensed music and some sound effects from the BBC, some effects were created Foley style (such as 1 pounds coins being dropped onto a pillow for the purchase sound).
It's really quite a nice mobile game which will probably end up on the Apple store when the girls finish their Manga characters. The bear looks fantastic, I'm really proud of the effort they made.
I think I was able to get across the idea of 'gamestate', device centric input (fat thumbs in small spaces = less stuff), sprite atlases, legal issues about assets and new swear words when something doesn't compile. Another important idea I try to convey is that of speed or flow, a game maintains a rhythm or cadence that is pleasing in human speech even if you don't understand the language. So we removed / rejected ideas that interrupted the natural flow except where demanded. If I ever get to afford to buy an iPad (replacing the sofa which has holes in it has priority) it should play quite well for a throw-away game that took just a few days to make.
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| King in 100 Days - Choose Your Next Move |
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| King in 100 Days - Mercs from The Village |
Great looking screenshots Flexman! Good to see a FCS pic as well and BTW the answer to the question in the first screenshot (Would this be classed as a wheeled vehicle or air defence unit?) is very simple:
ReplyDelete- Classed as a wheeled vehicle! It doesn't matter if that pickup carries in it's rear cab haystack piles or a ZU-23 or simply nothing, it's still a pickup and therefore classed as a wheeled vehicle in the FCS. Besides this would make the game much more challenging to the player since he/she cannot rely solely on the FCR to positivelly detect/identify a pickup with a ZU-23 in it's rear cab ;)
"One major issue still to resolve, the physics / flight model integration."
ReplyDeleteMy fingers are crossed. :-)
No need to cross your fingers, I won't release until I'm happy with it. That's really down to a matter of pride and getting two separate software boxes to click.
ReplyDelete@ricnunes Thanks bud. I agree 100%, the Apache has magic boxes that doesn't care what's on the back. The answer to the question I posed depends on whom one asks. Ask a game designer or mission builder you'll get one answer. Clearly, it's got a gun on the back that can track and shoot down helicopters, to game logic it needs to work as an ADV however our Apache will class it as a wheeled vehicle (at least, it does now that I edited the database entry).
The AI will look at a field which links it to the mob weapons database which hasn't been added yet. But that link should give it the behaviour it needs to operate as a ZSU.
What I'm finding is that the fixed 8KM range makes close range targets hard to pick out and this is where the TSD comes into play since it has a 2km range setting.
Dealing with fluctuating LOS is a problem.
BTW in my previous post I made a mistake: When I said FCS I really meant FCR (the radar) and my oppinion about the Pickup with Zu-23 (technical) classification as wheeled vehicle is only regarding if and when it's detected by the radar (FCR).
ReplyDeleteInstead if that same Pickup with Zu-23 (or any other armed pickup/technicals) is detected thru the TADS (at a distance close enough for accurate identification) than it should be identified accordingly and the player or Apache crewmen AI would now exactly with kind of target that is.
I would say its a wheeled vehicle as classified by the enemy inventory... if its in battle and ID'd by friendlies as a AAA threat then so be it.
ReplyDeletethe iphone game your family made looks like a lot of fun. I bet your kids will remember making that with you all their lives flex. maybe you should include it in the helo and hide it in one of the onboard computers functions for us to find.
I too found some unused TSD code lurking in my bathroom once... scared me to death.
If the FCR is capable of picking up a ZU-23-2 (it should be able to as the ZU is 0.95 metric tonnes of metal) and 2 objects in close vicinity, then it's not impossible to imagine it would display both a wheeled vehicle symbol along with a AAA symbol overlaid on top.
ReplyDeleteChanging the vehicle type entry for it in the vehicle database doesn't seem to be a good idea as later that attribute will be used to modify vehicle behaviour/AI etc. It'd be much more sensible for me to add a symbol column to the database.
Cheers
I would say that (and according from what I read) the FCR (Longbow radar) classifies the targets that detects by the general shape of the target and comparing that target shape to an internal database. If this is the case which I believe it is than I find very hard to believe that the radar is capable or will detect what's in the rear cab of a pickup.
ReplyDeleteImagine that the pickup carried in its rear cab a pile of haystack, would it show on the radar a wheeled vehicle symbol along with an "unknown" symbol overlaid on top? I find that hard to believe.
I'm guessing the MMW signal return is processed for a tell-tale signature in a similar fashion to how acoustic signatures of subs are built.
ReplyDeleteI would imagine you could spread the return out and count the peaks which would represent the more solid metal areas which on lighter vehicles would be the wheel base. Work out the size and peaks would give approximate aspect angle, I'm sure there's all manner of tell-tales available.
I'm also guessing that building these signatures would take a concerted effort of reading mmwave returns from many angles on a test rig and therefore not something that would be updated without a concerted program to do so.
Could be totally wrong of course.
I don't think I've come across any reference to how the CPG can manually classify / set the Icon either. I just thought the symbols were assigned by the FCR, and that's all.
ReplyDeleteIf the FCR contains the signature for the radar return of a ZU-23-2 then I can't see why a AAA symbol wouldn't be displayed regardless of whether it's mounted or unmounted. With all the plastic, rubber and synthetic materials attached to a truck there's likely more KG's of reflective metal in a ZU-23-2 than in a pickup therefore it's arguably a greater radar return than the pickup that's carrying it. IIRC barrels are usually a large source of radar reflection.
ReplyDeleteIt's all speculative and personally I'm not a fan of things that make games artificially harder than they need be. In this case I would give the benefit of the doubt and class it as an AAA vehicle.
Cheers
Yes, I believe that the FCR is able to detect a static ZU-23-2 cannon as an AA target because it's signature (static and alone ZU-23-2) is somewhere stored in a database. But what I'm saying is that the "global" signature of a static ZU-23-2 is diferent from the signature of a pickup with a ZU-23 on it's rear cab. So if the radar reads a target as a single identity which I believe it does the signature of the pickup with ZU-23 is in fact diferent from the static ZU-23 because for all it matter the shape of those two objects are diferent (despite one of them having the other "on top").
ReplyDeleteI believe that there's always the chance that in real life the target signature of Pickup with ZU-23 could be added to the database but the problem is that those armed technicals are always "custom made" and aren't "standard issue" like for example a Shilka is. Imagine for example if the insurgents instead of having a Toyota pickup truck with a ZU-23 they had a Bedford truck with a ZU-23??
Besides, like I previous said having a pickup with ZU-23 appearing as wheeled vehicle instead of AA target would certainly add the challenge for the counterinsurgency campaign since it would require that the player(s) and friendly AI Apache pilots get nearer to a pickup with ZU-23 in order for a positive ID (thru TADS).
please don't waste your time with iphone applications we need you to focus on this game and sell it to us sooner than later.
ReplyDeleteJust kidding.
When can i give you my money? please take my money, here....!
First goats ,now cows
ReplyDeleteSomeone here is a sadist, I call to greenpeace .
Believe it or not the ZU-23-2 mounted on a pick-up is a standard piece of Iranian military equipment.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?129494-Fortress-Iran
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?142058-Islamic-Republic-of-Iran-Armed-Forces-Official-thread
They aren't to my knowledge used by the taliban so they won't be a part of the counter-insurgency campaign.
Which pack are the cows in? The range could certainly use some cows.
Cheers
And remember - Chinook Maximum speed is 170 Knots and the NEVER exceed speed is 200 Knots!! ;)
ReplyDeleteAD, you make a good point that the Taliban probably doesn't use the pickup with ZU-23 (and thus they will only appear in the "conventional-war" campaign. I didn't think about it.
ReplyDeleteBut even so and despite the pickup/technical system with a ZU-23 mounted on top being part of the Iranian Army armoury, those systems also seem to by more "custom made" than "standard issue" and I'm saying this judging by your links (specially the first one). Thru the links that you provided it seems that for example the ZU-23 can be mounted in a wide array of pickups (Toyotas, etc...) and larger trucks and there are even systems that have modified ZU-23 cannons -> Instead of having 2 gun barrels (ZU-23-2) they have 1 barrel instead (ZU-23-1) in order to reduce weight and thus being able to position the gun in a higher position than usual within the vehicle.
BTW, what Banita is saying is that you have a typo in Combat-Helo web page, more precisely in the information page regarding the CH-47 Chinook (The Maximum speed and NEVER exceed speed values are exchanged). I remember to have alerted to this in the past and Banita for some reason seemed to have remembered this now.
ReplyDeleteThe ZU-23-2 can (and is) also mounted on the Boragh, which is another custom Iranian vehicle. So does that mean the Boragh (Half BMP/Half M113) w/ ZU-23-2 would be classed as a tracked vehicle?
ReplyDeleteHow about the SA-9? That's a wheeled BRDM with a set of strelas grafted on. Would it be classed as a wheeled vehicle by the fcr?
What about the SA-6? It's a tracked vehicle with a chassis that but definitely an air threat.
And then there's the M6 Linebacker, basically a M2A3 with the tow swapped out for a pod of stingers. Would that be classed as a tracked vehicle instead of an air threat? There's a much smaller physical difference going from the M2A3 -> M6, than from a pickup -> military pickup + ZU-23-2.
By using the logic that if it has wheels > it's a wheeled vehicle or if it has tracks > it's a tracked vehicle then we don't have a single vehicle that would be classed by the FCR as an air threat apart from perhaps the dismounted ZU-23-2, although seeing as that has wheels ...
I am genuinely curious to know exactly what the FCR can and can't see.
Cheers
A small p.s
ReplyDeleteAre the FCR's capabilities on this topic classified or is it something we can ask to a Longbow pilot?
Cheers
Aha, AD will have to fix that transposition. Cheers.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of having 'technicals', BBC News recently showed one in use on the streets of a Libyan town. I couldn't find the link of it spewing rounds but this was an interesting look inside a make-shift workshop...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14181417
@AD I have them classified correctly, it's not a worry.
ReplyDeleteAll of the most common equipment (SA6 SA9, ZSUs) will be recognised. The FCR can see everything (except destroyed wrecks, it removes those), anything it can't auto-classify it will mark with a default icon. Anything emitting a radar signal will have numbers relating to the radar type and be flagged as high threat. That's what it did in LB2, it got a lot of those details right.
I've yet to add those radar types, I figured I'd leave it till we have emitters working.
@AD:
ReplyDeleteThe SA-6, SA-9, SA-13 (and Shilkas, and others) are "standard issue" equipment so I'm sure that their signature is added to the Longbow's database and therefore they certainly would appear as "Air Defence" units.
Like I previously said, I do believe that "custom made" Air Defence units won't appear in the Longbow radar as Air Defence units (it will appear either wheeled or tracked, depending on what it runs).
Regarding the "Boragh (Half BMP/Half M113) w/ ZU-23-2" if it's "standard issue" for the Iranian army than I believe it would appear as "Air Defence", if not (if it's a "custom made unit") than it would appear "tracked".
BTW, according to you a Technical/Pickup that is armed with a heavy machine gun (like DShK for example) would considered as what? "Air Defence" (since DShK is AA "oriented") or "Wheeled" (afterall is just a "custom unit" with an MG on it's back)?
It's not really a question of whether a vehicle is custom made or standard, it's a question of whether the FCR is capable of picking up the difference between two similar vehicles carrying two very different armaments. In most cases the answer is probably no. Unfortunately, this area of information is apparently not available to the public so any attempt at drawing a conclusion either way is purely speculative.
ReplyDeleteCheers
I've made a quick search regarding how the Longbow radar works and I came up with this (a known site):
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ausairpower.net/longbow-aa.html
It basically confirms that the radar "look at the shape of possible targets" and use "their Doppler signatures, to identify aircraft, helicopters, SPAAGs, SAM systems, tanks, AFVs, trucks and other wheeled vehicles.".
What I gather from that is that basically in order for the radar to be able to identify a target thru it's signature it must have it stored into a database. And the chance for a "stardard issue" vehicle having it's signature stored into the database is at least much superior than for a "custom made" vehicle for what I think are obvious reasons. I would even say that the chances for a "custom made" vehicle to be in that database are slim.
It also seems that the FCR is also capable of identifying a generic type of targets thru probably generic signature (for example if it's a tracked or wheeled vehicle) but regarding to the question of "whether the FCR is capable of picking up the difference between two similar vehicles carrying two very different armaments" I would bet that if those two diferent vehicles signatures are stored into the database than the answer is YES or else it would be NO.
And yes, I agree that there's a lot speculation or "wild guess" regarding this issue but that's exactly and inevitably what happens when like you say, there's no aparent public detailed information regarding the issue...
Admittedly I didn't read the entire article but from reading the section you highlighted I couldn't find any suggestions that the FCR carries specific database signatures/imagery for specific vehicles (i.e it has a database signature for tank x and AFV y), rather it just says that it can identify vehicle by type (aircraft, helicopters, SPAAGs, SAM systems, tanks, AFVs, trucks and other wheeled vehicles.)
ReplyDeleteAgain it's speculative, but I'm guessing the FCR simply looks at the size of the radar return and estimates a tonnage, then looks for generic vehicle feature returns such as wheels/barrels/turrets etc. Then it compares the feature and displacement returns with a database of generic vehicle types and provides an estimation of what it is.
If the FCR could identify the difference between say, an M1A1 and a T-72, then you'd have the basis of an IFF system. I'm sure the FCR page on the MPD would display different symbology for the two vehicles, or better still, a label, instead of just the generic H symbol for both.
Cheers
Actually I believe that the FCR uses both methods to identify a target (or its type) -> Looking for the generic vehicle features and/or comparing it to a database.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I remember that when playing both Jane's Longbow 2 and modded (more realistic) EECH that when we lock a target in the FCR the type name of that target ("M1 Abrams" for example) appeared in a upper right display (I forgot that display's name). If this is what happens in real life than there must be some sort of database that stores the radar signatures for all known types of targets. What remains to be confirmed is if this feature (in Jane's Longbow 2 and EECH) is realistic or not?
If it's realistic you make a good point in saying "If the FCR could identify the difference between say, an M1A1 and a T-72, then you'd have the basis of an IFF system." and therefore we could have diferent symbols for "allied" and "enemy" tanks but I think there's two reasons why this doesn't happen (and assuming that the FCR can distinguish between a M1 Abrams and T-72 for example):
1- Imagine that both sides of the conflict (enemy and allied) use the T-72 (which is quite possible nowadays)? Or imagine if the enemy captured some M1 Abrams? Than this system couldn't certainly be used as an IFF.
2- The information that the Apache crewmen would receive thru the FCR would be much more confusing because instead of having 7 or 8 type of symbols the FCR could show the double or even the triple of those type of symbols (for enemies, friendlies and/or unknowns).